Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?

[HermanniHaven]

Hello, Please forgive my poor translation. I am from the USA. I breed Testudo hermanni hermanni, but I have a couple that are in question. I'm afraid that may be hybrids. There are 3 females. They came to the U.S. in 1990 from Tuscany as sub-adults. I label each photo according to the specific question tortoiseshell. If anyone can help me to decide whether they are pure or if they are hybrids, I'll be very grateful. Thanks! 3 All females are in the range of 16 cm.

Hermanni # 1: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. There's a lot of black pigment on both sides of the gulars.
Hermanni # 2: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.
Hermanni # 3: 5 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken and are thin. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.












Hermanni # 1: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. There's a lot of black pigment on both sides of the gulars.








Hermanni # 2: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.





Hermanni # 3: 5 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken and are thin. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.

[Drakul]

Hi there and welcome to our forum!
I must admit that I'm not an expert in this field, but I asked to my colleagues that are way better than me and I'll get back at you asap.

[HermanniHaven]

Thank you!

[lucio78]

Hello Chris .
First of all I apologize for my English and for the many mistakes .
Congratulations to the many species that breed is a real pleasure to have in the forum a person who raises our Thh even in another continent.
Personally, given the very careful analysis made ​​by you , in spite of some particular does not correspond perfectly to the subspecies , I believe that all three specimens belong to 99% of the subspecies Testudo hermanni hermanni .
The indisputable many characters clearly indicate this . Besides the yellow color in contrast with the black carapace is in incofondibile .
Keep in mind that the black on Gulari is present in many phenotypes in Italy , the number of nails is often irrelevant , the fact that the bands of black on the plastron are not nice contrast together and sometimes more subtle does not determine anything. The yellow stain on his cheek in some phenotypes Italian is not even present , however, and with age and time may be less visible. The only thing really strange and peculiar is the almost total absence of black or in the middle of the fourth vertical shield in the sample 2 and 3. But not for this can be considered hybrids.
Congratulations also because from the pictures you can clearly see that there are three very healthy and beautiful specimens grown really well.
The first is if I'm not mistaken the older (over 30 years) while the second and the third are younger (at least 20 years).
I hope I was clear enough and forgive the many mistakes as I have also used a translator.

[HermanniHaven]

You were very clear! Thank you very much. I appreciate the help. I have always been doubtful of these 3 females but I know it can be tough. I have a large collection of Testudo hermanni hermanni from many origins and most of them are very clear in the characteristics. I keep each group separated so that they stay pure to the origin. I will include photos of some that are very "classic" to the subspecies from some of the groups I care for.

[lucio78]

Congratulations indeed an incredible collection.
I think that in Italy a few breeders (that I know of none) if there are breeding so many phenotypes of Testudo hermanni hermanni.
But you have specimens of both sexes and you can reproduce all these phenotypes?
Where do you live exactly? What climate and seasons are you?
Recognizing the many phenotypes is definitely not easy but I have sufficient knowledge of the specimens in the photos look absolutely come from the areas that you indicated. You have all my respect.
The specimen from Sicily seems is the largest specimen and old, the youngest Toscano and that of the smallest Mallorca.
At this point it would be nice to also see how and where the breed of course when you have the desire and time.

[HermanniHaven]

Thank you!
I live in New Jersey and our climate is somewhat similar to certain areas in Italy. Yes I have males and females of all the phenotypes that I breed.
Yes you are correct about the ages!

[lucio78]

However, a few specimens have is certainly wild.
How much space to devote each pair?
How many young are born to each couple?
What legal requirements are there in the U.S. for the detention, care and breeding of European species of Testudo?
Sorry so many questions but curiosity is great.

[HermanniHaven]

I love the questions. It is hard to talk to other Americans about things like this because so many of them focus their attention on the same species. Testudo hermanni hermanni are VERY rare in USA collections. This is why I choose to correspond with people of Italy, France and Spain.

The legal requirements are valid CITES documents, individual microchips, birth year, written ministry approval, written United States Fish and Wildlife approval, customs approval and the buyer must have a valid import/export license. It is very hard to do, but it is very worth it.

I live on farmland. I have 10 acres all devoted to turtles, mainly Testudo species. Each phenotype of Testudo hermanni hermanni is provided with very large outdoor accommodations. Each year, I produce more than 50 babies. Some phenotypes like Mallorca do not produce as much as some of the Italian phenotypes. However, it is all very rewarding.

Each year, my state fish and wildlife service visits my home to make sure I am following the law. They make sure that I am keeping the turtles very healthy and clean.

[lucio78]

Really very interesting.
That there are laws and controls is always a good one.
Births are made through an incubator or even natural births (eggs incubated in the ground)?
How many depositions to take place a couple of average during the year?
Small newborn do play the first hibernation? Outdoors or controlled?
Probably the few births Mallorca phenotype is due to the fact that being the smaller specimen is also less eggs and less deposition of others or am I wrong?
But you can sell the specimens in the U.S. and abroad?

[HermanniHaven]

Yes I can sell the offspring here but are very expensive. The number of eggs varies between phenotypes (2 to 3 eggs for Sicilian and 2 clutches, less for Calabria and more for Tuscany). The young are not hibernated the first year. All births take place in an incubator but some will hatch naturally in the ground if a nest is not collected. Yes you are correct about Mallorca! Sometimes they only deposit 1 egg.

[lucio78]

I thought that the phenotype Sicilian did more eggs (at least 10) in view of the larger size and weight at or above the eye around 1kg (2.2 lb - pound). I was wrong weight?
What percentage of hatching eggs incubated for you?
However organizzandoti I think it's possible to make a short hibernation and maybe even checked the new born. Have you ever tried it? You know the lethargy is also important in the first year of life.
However it would be nice to see the pictures of the births of each phenotype.
For feeding in the wild in your area you will find wild herbs suitable (those present here in Italy) or directly instead you grow herbs in different precincts?

[HermanniHaven]

Yes some of the large Sicilian will do many more eggs. That was just an average number.
My hatching rate is usually 90-95% success. I have hibernated baby Testudo ibera, boettgeri and margintata and will probably hibernate the Thh this year as well.
For feeding we use natural herbs and weeds, we also grow our own and use organic dried herbs mixed in with other foods.

I will take more photos at another time, but for now here are some Sicily hatching!

[lucio78]

Thank you so much for all the details and availability.
The photos are amazing!
You have a breeding of many species, subspecies and phenotypes incredible.

[HermanniHaven]

Thank you very much!!!